Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Giuseppe Peano and his surviving works

Giuseppe Peano and his surviving works		NAVIGAZIONE

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First of all, I can read Italian so anybody can respond in Italian if they prefer. - Posso leggere l'italiano ma non posso scrivere bene. Puoi rispondere in italiano se preferisci.

I am a supporter of two languages, Ido and Latino sine flexione. Latino sine Flexione was created by an Italian mathematician named Giuseppe Peano from Torino, and he wrote a LOT of content in the language. None of it has a copyright anymore, and almost none of it is online. Some copies of his work can be found at the Library of Congress in the USA, and there are a lot of places to find it in Europe too. One example is called "Schola et Vita", and there are a lot of letters and correspondences too. Now that the documents are very old their condition is not so good, and I would like to find a way to get them put online. I live in Korea so I can't do it myself. I'm hoping that:

-A Latin society in Italy
-The Catholic Church
-Peano's University (Università degli Studi di Torino)
-A cool Wikipedian from Italy

might be able to help. Here's a link to the discussion we had last year started by a person that lives close to the Library of Congress about their condition. He doesn't have a notebook computer so he can't transcribe the documents himself, and we also heard that their condition is a bit better in the European libraries.

So, any good ideas? Grazie in anticipo. Mithridates (msg) 11:20, 23 mar 2008 (CET)

Bisogna capire dove si possono trovare. Se avessi qualche copia vicino potrei farlo io, ma non so dove cercarli. Jalo 12:18, 23 mar 2008 (CET)

Good point. Here's one search result: [1]

And the location: BO0304 [UBOGA] - Biblioteca comunale dell'Archiginnasio - Bologna - BO

I'll look for some more locations and write again in a few hours. Mithridates (msg) 12:41, 23 mar 2008 (CET)

Ma - per stare in tema di progetti WMF - bisognerebbe aprire una nuova wikisource? O si potrebbero pubblicare su la.wikisource? ----{G83}---- 13:23, 23 mar 2008 (CET)

Good question. Latino sine flexione is technically just Latin without inflexions, but I'm not sure whether they would still consider it to be Latin. Of course they're generally pretty welcoming to new content so I don't think they would mind uploading it there. That's probably where I would first try uploading it. If not there's always gutenberg.org or some other IAL (Lingua ausiliaria internazionale) wikis that would always welcome the content. Mithridates (msg) 13:52, 23 mar 2008 (CET)

Il libro che hai linkato (questo) si trova a Milano. Per me andrebbe bene ma si tratta della Biblioteca di filosofia dell'Università degli studi di Milano. Non credo che sia accessibile a meno di iscriversi all'Università (o perlomeno per informatica funzionava così). Jalo 14:51, 23 mar 2008 (CET)

Io potrei anche recuperarlo tramite amici che studiano filosofia alla Statale. Ma una volta che lo recupero, come si digitalizza? ----{G83}---- 16:41, 23 mar 2008 (CET)

We were thinking of two methods: 1) Scanning the work, whether through the library or through one's own computer. This might not be possible though if the library doesn't allow it. If not possible then the other option might be 2) to make a voice recording of the work, then send it to me. I'd be happy to type it up and then put it up on Wikisource. There shouldn't be any problems if it's read clearly (clear enough to know where one word ends and the next word begins) and a few people know latino sine flexione quite well and will be able to check for any errors. Mithridates (msg) 17:00, 23 mar 2008 (CET)

The best way to do so would be to involve an Italian university professor, who is too interested in the subject. The best situation would be if he/she works in a university where its library already has the book(s) you are interesting in. So if you already know some Italian university professor, and you already have regular e-mail correspondence, try to contact them about this subject.

Have you already try to contact the Project Gutenberg ? They should be more informed than us about that.

First of all you (or someone you are in contact to) can ask the Library of Congress if they can do for you a digital book scanning or at least taking digital photograph (digital scanning) of each page of the books. Usually you can have the result sent to you via e-mail or in a CD-ROM, but this service you have to pay to.

If you can not have this done from the Library of Congress or from any libraries you can have direct access to, you can try to send a similar request to a library that has the book. For the "Biblioteca di Filosofia di Milano", you can find some information at [2] and [3] . Note that it is definitively better if the request is send by another librarian, not directly by you (so go to a big library near you, where there is an inter-library exchanging office and ask them to do that). -- AnyFile (msg) 17:53, 23 mar 2008 (CET)

Okay, thanks, those are some good ideas. I think I'll look through the website for Università degli Studi di Torino to see if I can find anybody that might be interested. I was also thinking about contacting Google since they do a lot of scanning as well. The good thing about this subject is that there are a lot of good ways to get it done. Lots of options. Mithridates (msg) 18:17, 23 mar 2008 (CET)

Update: Very good news. Somebody has just informed me of two collections of his that have already been put on CD-ROM. Here's what he wrote:

There is a library named after Peano in the Department
of Mathematics of the University of Turin, where he
was a professor. But I don't know if it contains any
of his original books or papers.

There's also a special Peano collection in the library
of his home town, Cuneo, which has been put on CD-ROM:

"L'Archivio Peano della Biblioteca civica di Cuneo su
CD-rom"

here's the other part:

A CD-ROM of all Peano's writings (not just LsF) has
appeared. It includes a digitalisation of the
collection of his papers in the library of the
Department of Mathematics of the University of Milan:

L'opera omnia di Giuseppe Peano

Autore : a cura di Clara Silvia Roero

Descrizione Dato il rilievo dell’opera scientifica e
linguistica di Peano (1858-1932), e al fine di 
diffondere e di promuovere le ricerche sulla sua
figura di maestro e di ideatore del latino sine
flexione, il Dipartimento di Matematica ha ritenuto
utile riversare su Cd-Rom il corpus delle
pubblicazioni, apparse nel corso della vita.

Riprodotti dagli originali e presentati in ordine
cronologico, gli scritti di Peano comprendono sia gli
articoli, sia i libri, i testi di lezioni e le
dispense litografate a cura di suoi studenti, nonché
le traduzioni e le ristampe contenenti aggiunte o
correzioni, rispetto alle prime edizioni.

La collezione contiene anche la digitalizzazione della
Raccolta di scritti di Giuseppe Peano con note
autografe, 1889-1901, conservata presso la Biblioteca
del Dipartimento di Matematica dell’Università di
Milano.

Since there is no copyright, I guess that just means that I'd have to find somebody with access to the CD-ROM that could send the content somehow, so no need for a scanner. Maybe I'll go ask on the Italian Wikisource since they are probably more involved in this sort of thing. Mithridates (msg) 17:33, 24 mar 2008 (CET)

Ottimo. Buona fortuna :-) Jalo 17:50, 24 mar 2008 (CET)

I CD-rom dovrebbero essere questi: nella pagina si parla di divieto di riproduzione, ma credo che sia sui CD-Rom, non sugli scritti; il costo però è alto. Io lavoro a Torino e ho studiato a Matematica, non ho contatti privilegiati per recuperare i CD, ma se serve posso dare una mano. --Luca Antonelli (msg) 21:28, 24 mar 2008 (CET)

Visto che la biblioteca dell'Archiginnasio citata sopra è in zona, prima di andare di persona mi sono informato sul loro sito. Forniscono riproduzioni dei manoscritti e dei testi rari, ma non ne permettono la cessione a terzi. Non è chiaro il discorso trascrizione, alla prima occasione utile chiederò di persona. Il problema probabilmente è: sui dipinti i beni culturali hanno dei diritti, vale lo stesso per i testi antichi nelle biblioteche? Se sì, solo per le riproduzioni fotografiche? Ad esempio le condizioni di utilizzo della biblioteca digitale non sono molto chiare. Se qualcuno è interessato (ad esempio amici di wikisource) posso andare di persona a informarmi da un umano, ma mi servono delle specifiche chiare. --Giuseppe (msg) 00:12, 25 mar 2008 (CET)

I asked on Wikisource yesterday but it's a less-busy site than here so no response yet.

Also, apparently the Library of Congress and some European libraries do have some content by Peano (well, edited by him but written by others) that isn't on the CD-ROM. Here's what one of the people on Auxlang said just now:

"Peano was not the only person to write in LsF/Interlingua. "Schola et Vita" had contributions from many writers. Even the book I have was probably not written by Peano. As I recall reading, Peano accepted articles written in LsF in the mathematical journal he edited. Peano was a mathematician of some international repute. "Peano's Axioms" are still used in theoretical arithmetic."

Mithridates (msg) 03:19, 25 mar 2008 (CET)