Discussione:Jean-Étienne Liotard

Liotard was Genevan, not Swiss

Jean-Etienne Liotard was born in 1702, and died in 1789, in the Republic of Geneva, which lasted from 1541 until 1815 (except for the period 1798-1813 when it was the capital of the French Department du Léman). Geneva joined Switzerland in 1815 only. It is perfectly absurd and misleading to categorize Liotard as being « Swiss », as it would have occurred to no one at his time to do so. It is as absurd as saying that Giovanni Calvino (who did proclaim the Republic of Geneva in 1541) was « Swiss ». Sapphorain (msg) 17:06, 16 mar 2018 (CET)

Hi Sapphorain, we decided some years ago to write the incipit of biographies with reference to the nationality (en:Nation) instead of to the citizenship of the subjects. Do you think that french nationality would best fit with him? --Harlock81 (msg) 19:14, 17 mar 2018 (CET)

People from Geneva at that time did not have either a « French » or a «  Swiss » nationality. It was very similar to Monaco today. Would you classify Alberto II di Monaco as « French », or « Italien » (or maybe « Swiss » )? Sapphorain (msg) 22:25, 17 mar 2018 (CET)

Even Encyclopaedia Britannica indicates him as Swiss painter https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jean-Etienne-Liotard .

As general rules we don't have en.wikipedia and/or other languages versions of Wikipedia as references. We distinguish between citizenship and nationality. This second attribute is what we are using and in our interpretation, when applied to persons of the past, this broad term is more specific to the cultural milieu and it is best descriptive of where the subject spent his life. --Bramfab Discorriamo 10:09, 19 mar 2018 (CET)

The problem is that there has never been a « Swiss nationality » , as opposed to a Swiss citizenship, as you seem to be thinking. People from Geneva or from Neuchâtel, or from Ticino were never referred to as « Swiss » before they actually joined Switzerland. It is not at all the same as Greek or Italian nationalities: people from Greece were referred to as Greeks more than two thousand years ago, even though there was no centralized Greek state, because they shared aproximately the same culture and language. Italy was already called « Italia » by Publio Cornelio Tacito two thousand years ago. There is nothing of the sort regarding the different parts of Switzerland. (Beside, the « cultural milieu » in which Liotard spend most of his life is Turkish !).

Now regarding the fact that a reputable encyclopedia contributes spreading an old mistake: well, this doesn’t magically transforms a false assertion into a true one ! Sapphorain (msg) 15:29, 19 mar 2018 (CET)

Maybe there is a cultural misunderstand, or simply You don't understand: nationality is not a term that can be related just to a nations, states, as these organisations exist today. Please ask to the "Encyclopaedia Britannica" why they indicate him as Swiss painter, than revert to us with their answer. And spite of Tacito nobody indicates Gaio Julius Caesar as Italian. Regards, --Bramfab Discorriamo 16:00, 19 mar 2018 (CET)