Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Grimaldi village name

I was editing an article about Grimaldi man and I'm not sure if his name derives from the village or from the members of House of Grimaldi, who financed the expedition. I tried to find out, how and when the village has got its name, but couldn't find anything. Maybe Italian speakers will be more successful and someone will add the info in your article? --Qbli2mHd (msg) 13:19, 18 apr 2015 (CEST)

Usually the name come from the place, so I suppose from Grimaldi village, but I can't find any source.

L'articolo di cui sta parlando en:Grimaldi Man (da noi una sezione Balzi Rossi#Uomo di Grimaldi).--Yoggysot (msg) 17:26, 18 apr 2015 (CEST)

I found a paper which claims that the territories surrounding the caves used to belong to Grimaldi house until 1861 when they were sold to France. I wonder if any Italian sources have information about Monaco/France sovereignty over these territories and how they could be ceded to Italy. --Qbli2mHd (msg) 19:00, 18 apr 2015 (CEST)

The story of this border is a bit complex... The Congresso di Vienna/en:Congress of Vienna in 1815 assign Contea di Nizza/en:County of Nice to House of Savoy and the Kingdom of Sardinia, and Monaco (surrounded by the County of Nice) become a protectorate of Savoia. In 1848 peoples of Mentone and Roccabruna, at the time parts of Monaco (actually the majority of the surface of Monaco principality) rebelled, demanding the annexation to the County of Nice and so to Savoy House. Between 1848 and 1860 they are de jure part of Monaco, but de facto part of Kingdom of Sardinia, with italian law and currency (Città libere di Mentone e Roccabruna), so all the area of the cave and its surrounding is under italian control.

With Trattato di Torino (1860)/en:Treaty of Turin Savoy give the Nice surrounding to France, for the help provided by Napolenone III in the war versus the Austrian Empire, and Monaco become a French protectorate. The south border follow the Rio San Luigi river, between Grimaldi village and Mentone, less than 1Km west from the caves. But Mentone and Roccabruna officially are still parts of Monaco, so they are sold to France by Charles III of Monaco: he renounced to his rights over the two towns in perpetuity, and in excange received 4 million francs and the promise of the realization of some road infrastructure.

During the WWII Italy invades France, occuping Mentone, moving to the west the border. Then between september 1944 and april 1945 the French advanced, coming to occupy Ventimiglia, and then moving the boundary to the east. In 1947 the border return along the San Luigi river.--Yoggysot (msg) 22:42, 18 apr 2015 (CEST)

I managed to find a source which states that Grimaldi village is named after Carlo Grimaldi who acquired these lands in 1351. It's supported by another source, which says, if I get it right, that Carlo purchased the coastland between (punto) Garavano and Mortola (Inferiore). It also mentions (as I can tell from google translation) that it's unknown when Grimaldi lost these lands. In a book written by Rene Verneau (anthropologist, who examined the skeletons in Grimaldi caves) it is said that in 1846 the caves still belonged to Monaco. The article on Trento University website states that the caves belonged to Grimaldi until 1861, but I couldn't find any other sources supporting this claim. --Qbli2mHd (msg) 21:07, 19 apr 2015 (CEST)

If you see the other volume of the first source (Antonio Manno, Bibliografia storica degli Stati della monarchia di Savoia, published in 1891) in valume 3 Balzi Rossi is also called "Grotte di Mentone", but it's regarded (at the time) as part of Ventimiglia. In volume 9 Mentone is said to be at the time part of Nizza, and beetween 1848 and 1861 part of Kingdom of Sardinia. Is possible that the area of the cave is owned by Grimaldi as "landowner" and not as "ruler", so it isn't part of Monaco... or maybe the border of Mentone before 1861 was more to the east of a few hundred meters, and the cave was inside it. --Yoggysot (msg) 01:26, 26 apr 2015 (CEST)