Discussioni progetto:Chimica/Archivio/portale

Fornitore Chimica

Dear Chemists,

WikiChem, the english version of the chemistry section currently ads "Supplier links". My point of view is: this will give conflicts of interest. The following points are not clear: a) Where is a guideline for the selection of companies (there is a certain preference for aldrich) b) Are editors of WikiChem paid for the selection of certain companies? c) Is the educational, non-commercial character of wikipedia affected?

There are currently running several discussions. Please add your opinions. For me, Wikipedia is user-contributed and "WikiChem" is part of Wikipedia and not the product of two or three editors...

Currently, there are only two voices talking. Please add your opinion!

Best regards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:213.188.227.119 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment#Commercial_Suppliers 213.188.227.119 03:49, 30 mag 2006 (CEST)

I just want to point out a couple of things:

1. Commercial links are, in contrast to what our friend '213.188.227.119' is saying, not only there in the chemical pages, it is also there in other pages, e.g. en:Audi, en:Hybrid vehicle, and en:Binoculars. The counterargument is, that on En:Car are no links, but also on En:Chemical compound are no links, and these pages are of a similar kind.
2. The commercial links are at the bottom of the document, close to the 'external links' section, indeed, the section is sometimes before the 'references' section, and I think that the users on the English wikipedia would move them to the bottom of the page (well, I am). Links in the text should (and will) be removed.
3. The policy is, to have 3-4 links on the page. OK, there are many that have only 1-2, but a short survey of 10 pages gave me an avarage of 3.1 suppliers per page (not fair, because I did not take into account all the pages without any external links, but these are the pages 213.188.227.119 has given me).
   1. en:Aluminium sulfate: diff by en:User:Physchim62 (3 companies)
   2. en:Hydrobromic acid: diff and diff by en:User:VFMOON (2 companies)
   3. en:Imidazole: diff by en:User:Mogiemilly (3 companies)
   4. en:Sulfur trioxide: diff by en:User:Physchim62 (1 company)
   5. en:Potassium iodide: diff by en:User:Walkerma (8 companies)
   6. en:Buffer solution: diff by en:User:Vossman (indeed, an inapropriate place for the link, moved, 1 company)
   7. en:Risk and Safety Statements: diff by en:User:Cacycle (1 company, I note you can't buy this stuff)
   8. en:Aluminium oxide: diff by en:User:v8rik (moved link to appropriate section, 1 company)
   9. en:Potassium chloride: diff by en:User:Walkerma, diff by en:User:217.14.228.213 and removed (diff) by en:User:Walkerma, and diff by en:User:209.53.166.92 (6 companies)
   10. en:Iron(III) chloride: diff by en:User:Walkerma (moved suppliers to bottom of page, 5 companies)
4. The mass-input of links to an external page, without use as a reference, is prohibited, see en:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chemicals#pyrowiki.com. Hence, there is NO proof that there is any commercial influence on these links. In the abovementioned list of examples it is shown that the links are put there by several people (not the small number (2-3) that 213.188.227.119 is mentioning in the discussion on the English wikipedia). Page edits (especially of these kinds) are even faster removed, if they are not put in by a regular member of the wikipedia, but by one that uses an IP-number for all his edits.
5. There are no links on e.g. en:Diethylether or en:benzene. Apparently the users found their data somewhere else, or did not cite their sources. However, if I were a chemical company, I would have put my links in these pages already (making sure that I was not spamming). Another proof, that there are no mass commercial inputs.
6. And, in contrast to what 213.188.227.119 is thinking (and apparently, some editors on the German wikipedia with him, [1]), it is also there in other wikipedia's .. Some examples (easy to find, one just has to wander around in the Wikipedia, and see what you encounter)?
   1. de:Diethylether (Hedinger, seems a company to me)
   2. de:Xylol (again, Hedinger)
   3. de:Dimethylsulfat (OK, I was not sure about Hedinger, but for sure I am about DuPont)
   4. de:PVC (coroplast looks like a company to me)

And:

1. 1. de:Mercedes-Benz (6 links to company pages)
   2. es:Mercedes-Benz (Spanish Wikipedia, at least 5 links)
   3. nl:Mercedes-Benz (Dutch Wikipedia .. 3 to car pages, one to a journal)
   4. hr:Mercedes-Benz (eh .. Hrvatski Wikipedia, 1 link)

I hope that I have given you something to think about. Although there is a certain truth in the main statement of 213.188.227.119, many of his arguments are flawed. Now I must confess, the editors on the wikipedias may be biased in which websites they use, resulting in a certain bias towards pages. That is indeed hard to circumvent.

User 213.188.227.119 has already informed us, that he will not contribute to a Wikipedia, that contains commercial links, so I was curious if other wikipedia's suffered of similar problems and to see how they cope with it. It seems that policies are not that different around the different communities after all. External links are an invaluable source of information, but they should be used with a great deal of care (but that is a completely different discussion).

I am curious to see how this discussion is developing on the German, Dutch, Spanish, Italian and English wikipedia, I will follow this with interest. Kind regards. --Beetstra 10:13, 3 giu 2006 (CEST)

Hello Beetstra,

the problem did not massively show up on this Wikipedia yet, although it's currently handled according to our policy about the external links - most of such links are therefore deleted without discussion, mostly because the company site cannot add any further information about the chemical compound itself, which is the real subject of our Wiki article.

Just as Wikipedia is not a search engine for personal CVs or a poor copy of the Yellow Pages, it is not intended to be a poor replication of the already existing internet tools the chemical companies rely on for trading their materials.

Hope this answers your question. Bye. --Paginazero - Ø 15:18, 10 giu 2006 (CEST)

Hi Paginazero,

Thank you for your answer. Sorry for not reacting earlier, I have been away for a moment, and did not check here often. I wanted to point out that, to a reader, a link to companies websites on Mercedes-Benz or on a chemical does not make a difference, I would even argue, that the link on the Mercedes Benz page is more commercial (anyone can buy a car, if they have enough money) while noone, except the small group of chemists, can buy common sodium chloride from a chemical supplier ... Yet, the web-pages on both give extra information, and both can be used as a reference, a source of info (and hence, should be cited). For a chemist using the Wikipedia is not a way of finding where to buy, and for a user, it may just yield extra information.

We are currently looking into a solution, making a special page like Speciale:Booksources, but then searching on chemicals (see en:wikipedia:chemical sources) we use CAS-numbers for now, but are already thinking about abandoning CAS, use of that number is, technically, not free). Kind regards, Beetstra 09:55, 20 giu 2006 (CEST)

No need to apologize, Beetstra. I'd be grateful if you might keep me up to date about the solution that en.wiki will adopt. It's not uncommon that issues raising at first on en.wiki sooner or later - as long as our version grows - have to be faced here too. Bye. --Paginazero - Ø 10:17, 20 giu 2006 (CEST)

Elementi

Ritengo che l'elenco degli elementi andrebbe cambiato, se si sta parlando di chimica, gli elementi andrebbero messi in ordine secondo la tavola periodica degli elementi e non in ordine alfabetico come lo è attualmente, per una maggiore qualità di Wikipedia. Prego ai "chimici" che gestiscono questa sezione di prendere atto di questa piccola critica, che è solo una mia visione personale di come andrebbe messo l'elenco. Grazie!!!

chemicals

(please keep this discussion in English, it may be followed by more people around the wikipedia/mediawiki organisation)

Dear all, some time ago, there was a fierce discussion about commercial links in wikipedia (which also reached the Italian wikipedia, vide supra), and these links keep being a problem (and not only the commercial links). Some people have taken up the task to programm a link-page, comparable with the Book sources page.

This page has been created, and been enabled on a temporary wiki here. I would like to hear comments/critics etc. on my talk page on that wiki. If there is consensus that this is a positive addition to the wikipedia, I might be able to convince the developers to implement it. Cheers! --Beetstra 22:43, 26 ott 2006 (CEST)

Citazioni in italiano

Visto che questo Portale chimica è della versione in Italiano perchè le citazioni

There's plenty of room at the bottom - Richard Feynman, 1960

There's even more room at the top - Jean-Marie Lehn, 1995

sono in inglese? Non sarebbe meglio tradurle?

Perchè la formula del legame di Van der Waals ha lo sfondo bianco e non violetto?

Per il resto la pagina è bellissima! Complimenti!

Citazioni: non abbiamo ancora trovato una traduzione italiana che renda lo stesso senso con la stessa eleganza.

Violetto: è un limite del sistema - gli sfondi delle formule matematiche sono sempre bianchi.

Grazie dei complimenti. Ciao. --Paginazero - Ø 19:35, 4 dic 2006 (CET)

La formula del legame di Van der Waals potrebbe essere trasformata in un'immagine e lo sfondo pitturato di quel violetto. Lo posso fare io.

Fai pure. Grazie. --Paginazero - Ø 22:35, 11 dic 2006 (CET)

Sono Marcello Soave, quello che ha modificato la formula matematica mettendo lo sfondo violetto: possibile che questo costituisca una violazione del copyright? Come posso togliere l'avviso di rimozione dalla pagina dell'immagine della formula?

Tempo di decadimento

Ho notato che la voce emivita linka ad un redirect. Ho già fatto quattro collegamenti diretti da Idrogeno, Uranio, Nettunio e Plutonio, sopprimendo il collegamento indiretto via emivita. --Wikipedia Express 16:14, 9 mag 2007 (CEST)

Precitazione

Leggendo ho notato che si parla di precipitazione solo come origine di analisi qualitativa. La precipitazione non mi da solo informazioni qualitative circa la natura dei reagenti ma può anche essere usata a scopo di diagnosi quantitativa attraverso titolazioni di precipitazione.Infatti, ad esempio, è proprio cosi che si determina la concentrazione dei cloruri o ioduri nelle acque attraverso una titolazione del campione incognito con argento nitrato.Pertanto secondo me bisognerebbe ampliare la defizione aggiungendo l'aspetto quantitativo fruibile da una reazione di precipitazione...?aspetto Vostri pareriTigro87 11:59, 2 giu 2007 (CEST)